B5 S4? Good idea?

"Niquemarshall" (dominiquemarshall) 01/09/2014 at 15:54 • Filed to: Audi, B5S4, Audilopnik

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Alright, on Monday I was at MINI getting my doors thawed out when I drove past a Toy Barn. An S4 caught my eye. It was a red 2001, with the V6TT and was very clean and bone stock. It's also a 6SP with the alcantara interior, heated seats and moonroof, which I heard was quite rare. I went inside, and chatted with the guys; found it was owned by an older gentleman, and was serviced by the dealer for at least the past 80k miles, BUT it's still on the stock turbos at 147k. I also discussed a trade for my current car, a 2004 Mini Cooper S. I've heard good and bad stories about these cars, but this was serviced at a dealer, who I would imagine would be the first to suggest changing the turbos. I need some advice here because I can't really sleep now that I've gotten my sights on it.

Desu-San-Desu > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 15:58

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They are fantastic cars and there are tons of turbos available for them. The maintenance, if you do it yourself, is fairly straight forward and mechanical parts are affordable. The money-pit factor is really the electronics. I'd recommend getting a friend who is good with wiring and electrical systems, as that will save you bookoo bucks. Mechanically though? Stay on top of the recommended maintenance and they're fairly bulletproof.

jariten1781 > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 15:59

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Don't ever believe a dealer that says that a vehicle was serviced there unless you have outside proof. Tons of them lie about that all the time. My last car is still sitting on a dealer lot right now with an ad up saying 'previous owner had all service done here' while in truth I lived all the way across the country and that dealer never touched the car.

Saracen > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:03

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That depends...are you willing to spend thousands per year on maintenance, or do you have the tools and know how to pull the engine yourself?

You'll need one or the other for a high mileage 2.7T.

147k miles on the stock turbos means they are on borrowed time.

Niquemarshall > jariten1781 01/09/2014 at 16:04

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Wow. Are they even allowed to do that? Even if it was an Audi dealer?

Niquemarshall > Desu-San-Desu 01/09/2014 at 16:06

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Is it true that the car is a royal PITA? Do you really have to drop the engine for everything? If so, is the engine drop quicker than any other since it has to come down fairly often?
Also does the car have any life left at 147095 miles?

Niquemarshall > Desu-San-Desu 01/09/2014 at 16:07

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Here's the interior. Sorry to be bombarding you, I'm just very eager to learn, and don't wanna lose my ass on this car

Niquemarshall > Saracen 01/09/2014 at 16:08

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So they really are that bad..?

Audi-os, amigos > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:09

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Pretty.

Saracen > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:12

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It can be...it'll nickel and dime you. There are a lot of seals that can go bad and electronics to deal with. Any major service (including working on the turbos) requires pulling the engine. I met an S4 guy recently that had the engine pulled three times in two years.

jariten1781 > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:14

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I imagine it would fall under false advertising or some such and you could take them to civil court for misrepresenting a product or file criminal charges for fraud...but why on earth would you waste your time and probably more money than you would on the car doing it when you can just be smart about your purchases.

On my old car anyone who ran a carfax could see that the car was never in the state so it's pretty easy to check. A lot of dealers input their services to carfax as well. You could also ask the dealership for the service records and if they won't pony them up it's a good sign they're snowballing you. Of course, if they're lying they'll probably just add another and say it's not their policy or whatever.

The 'it was owned by an older man/woman' is also a pretty standard lie.

It doesn't even mean that the car is bad. My car was in superb condition and will make a great vehicle for someone. If the buyers do the right thing and check its condition and history they can get a good deal even if it's coming from a dishonest dealer.

Moxy > Saracen 01/09/2014 at 16:21

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There are a lot of seals that can go bad and electronics to deal with.

This. And shaft play. Turbos are a cruel mistress.

If you have your heart set on it though, you might try taking it for a test drive and see if you notice any glaring boost issues.

Textured Soy Protein > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:21

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It's a 13 year old complicated German car with expensive parts.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a guaranteed nightmare, but even if it continues to be relatively reliable (for what it is), you're still going to have a not-insignificant amount of maintenance costs.

As long as you don't go into it expecting to only need to fill it up with gas and change the oil, and are able to afford those potential maintenance costs, then hey might as well.

Other issue is if you need a loan, you may have to shop around to get a decent rate for a car that old.

case-sensitive > Audi-os, amigos 01/09/2014 at 16:26

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Very pretty.

I don't know if Amazon sells turbo's for the 2.7 like they do for the 1.8, but it might be your cheapest option. FYI, they sell a claimed +20hp hybrid turbo for the 1.8t for $300.

Chris Clarke > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:29

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I have almost the exact car except in yellow. I haven't spent a dime on maintenance in 2 years and I beat it hard. Granted my turbos were replaced at about 130k. Don't trust the dealer, drive it till the turbos blow. Love every minute. Worth every dime.

Don't get me wrong, I change oil regularly. Keep up with regular maintenance and take care of my turbos, but if you know how to do it, its very rewarding.

What's the asking price?

Jay Lauer > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:31

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DON"T DO IT.

I drove three seperate B5 S4's went looking for my current car.Each one had a worse problem than the last. One had shot bushing everywhere. One had boost problems. The last had impending transmission failure. All 3 had about 120k-140k miles. I bought a 330 BMW instead and could not have been happier. The reliability is appauling, and the values are plummeting.

KEEP YOUR MINI COOPER S. TRADING FOR A B5 S4 WOULD BE A HUMONGOUS DOWNGRADE.

Chris Clarke > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:33

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They are actually very strait forward to work on and I've never had to drop an engine. My B5 S4 has 210k going strong.

ColoradoTaco > Desu-San-Desu 01/09/2014 at 16:33

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I have had mine for three years and had very little issue with electronics, everything else on the other hand....

ColoradoTaco > Saracen 01/09/2014 at 16:34

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Shit mine had to be pulled three times in three months. Miles covered during those months was about 5

JasonStern911 > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:37

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http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthre…

Personally, I would never buy one from a dealership as you are completely at a loss for how the previous owner treated it, what repairs and maintenance has been done, etc., etc.

ColoradoTaco > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 16:38

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Most of the money into it is for repairs / maintenance. Off the top of my head, since March 2011 (when i bought it) I've replaced:
control arms ($$$)
valve cover gaskets and associated seals ($$$)
timing belt / water pump ($$$)
rebuilt head with all new valves ($$$$)
rebuilt axels ($$$)
turbos (one twice) and associated oil feed lines ($$$$)
lots of new vacuum hoses ($)
silicon boost hoses ($$)
torque converter ($$$$)
both rear window regulators ($$)
other small stuff I'm sure I'm missing
MODS:
chip (easy swap+cash)
coilovers (easy swap+cash)
wheels/spacers - keep for replacement, easy sell if needed
Forge diverter valves
boost gauge (easy swap+cash)
exhaust (my favorite mod, the note is sexy)
intake with CF heat shield (easy swap+cash)

new turbos will run ~$1900 for stock parts replacements, ~$2400 if you want RS4 KO4s. However, when it's healthy, it is a real good car

ColoradoTaco > Chris Clarke 01/09/2014 at 16:41

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You better go drive and caress it, it heard you say you never dropped the engine and I'm sure it is plotting against you now.

ColoradoTaco > ColoradoTaco 01/09/2014 at 16:43

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Also, the moon roof is pretty standard, getting one without is rare.

ihm96 > JasonStern911 01/09/2014 at 17:19

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You never truly know how the previous owner treated it, unless of course you know that owner personally.

ihm96 > ColoradoTaco 01/09/2014 at 17:22

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That sounds like the repairs probably weren't done pretty well. Even on any very unreliable car that is something that should never happen. Although I guess it is possible that completely different systems or parts could fail, but if so that is just horrible luck and I feel bad for you either way. However I think that you are probably a rare case

ColoradoTaco > ihm96 01/09/2014 at 17:30

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I agree, my situation was not the norm. It was just horrible luck with 3 different systems. Started when the cam chain tensioner failed and lunched my valves, pull#1. Had head rebuilt and replaced turbos preemptively along with other misc, hard-to-reach stuff. After re-install, one of the brand-new turbos blew while the shop owner was out making sure it was ready to come home (warranty denied by Borg Warner too YAY!) pull #2. Then had the torque converter (tiptronic ftl) disintegrate on my way home from work the first day I had it back after pull#2 leading to pull #3.

That was Spring last year and it has been swell since then with nothing but regular scheduled maintenance and new battery, but damned if it wasn't snake bit at that time. I will say that I have never felt more confident in a cars ability in bad weather than I have been with both my quattro cars with Winter tires.

ColoradoTaco > Chris Clarke 01/09/2014 at 17:38

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yeah, the dealer should be giving you the S plus cash for the Mini. Full on stage 3s go for 10-12k, maybe a bit more for rare-colored avants with 6spd. Bone stock sedans with those miles I'd say 6-8

Desu-San-Desu > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 17:50

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Well, I don't have the V6, mine runs the I5, but Audis in generally are very intelligently engineered and as a result, are generally quite easy to work on. Personally, I can't think of anything aside from a rebuilt that my engine would need to be dropped for. The V6 is still a longitudinal motor, so even the timing belt/chain only requires taking the grill and bumper assembly off. Exhaust manifolds can be done through the wheel well, as can almost anything else that can't be done through the top of the engine bay.

As for mileage, again, I'm running an N/A I5, but mine is approaching 250,000 miles and the only mechanical issues are a ticky lifter and a worn clutch (original clutch from the factory, btw).

Desu-San-Desu > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 17:52

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Looks super clean. I say go for it. Just have all the maintenance records presented to you before the negotiation process and make sure they give you time to go over them. If possible, ask for copies, take them home, and consult Oppo on them.

JasonStern911 > ihm96 01/09/2014 at 17:53

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Yes, but you can make a much more informed decision talking with the owner to get a feel for how he treated the car/what he knows about the car/etc., having him take you on a test drive so you can get a feel for his driving habits, being handed a stack of service records dating back through the car's life, and having a trusted mechanic look at it than blindly trusting a dealer.

But feel free to buy a high mileage, twin turbo AUDI known for mediocre at best reliability because a dealer that has maybe driven the car twice and quite probably never even met the original owner (as many cars are bought through auction) because said dealer who financially benefits from making a sale says the car is "solid."

Desu-San-Desu > ColoradoTaco 01/09/2014 at 17:55

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What in god's name happened to necessitate pulling the engine?

Desu-San-Desu > ColoradoTaco 01/09/2014 at 18:03

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Methinks you may have bought a lemon, bub...

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 20:32

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A B5 S4 or a R53 Mini...hmm...let me think about this for a minute...

R53. No question.

My brother has a B5 S4, and it is a car on borrowed time. Already having small things start going, and I wouldn't be shocked if the turbos go on his soon, as I know it's over 120K miles, and he drives it hard. He doesn't have the mechanical aptitude to do repairs, and I know enough that I wouldn't take that (changing turbos) on unless I had another car to drive while I was working on it.

I'd be getting a B6 S4 (because V8), but I also have this thing about Volkswagens and repairs...I'd rather deal with the Daimler or BMW guys.

Niquemarshall > Jay Lauer 01/09/2014 at 20:37

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Idk what to do..! My mini isn't really known to be reliable but I haven't had any issues.

Jay Lauer > Niquemarshall 01/09/2014 at 23:48

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You will have issues with a B5 S4.

Even now after getting the BMW, I'd love to have a Cooper S for the mileage. Cooper's are also one of the best value holders, while B5 S4's are one of the worst.

Seriously, I'm just trying to help another car enthusiast. I know the Audi's tempting for what all you get, but it's not well built.

ColoradoTaco > Desu-San-Desu 01/10/2014 at 09:01

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No shit, thanks for that insight. Even with records of service used cars are dice roll.

ColoradoTaco > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/10/2014 at 09:04

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If you think replacing turbos on a B5 is expensive, look up the timing chain service on the B6. Makes turbos look cheap

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > ColoradoTaco 01/10/2014 at 10:20

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Expected life on a chain is far longer than 125K miles. Normally, chains just need the tensioner and guides replaced. It's very rare to require a full chain replacement (See the 300D story below), unless you have a very high mileage vehicle.

Now if you have to remove the chain case to get to these things, that shows one of two options.

The engineers expected the chain to last the useful life of the motor. OR

VW still has issues with packaging things to be able to be serviced.

I would posit the OM603 and OM606 as decent engines with a chain. I helped RamblinRover change the timing chain on his 1987 300D (I turned the crank while he fed the chain in, and pulled the old chain out. Only required removing the valve cover.)

How many miles? We don't know. The odometer broke a few years back at 317K ish miles.

ColoradoTaco > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/10/2014 at 10:29

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The chain on the B6 4.2 is on the back on the engine, needs to be pulled for service.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > ColoradoTaco 01/10/2014 at 10:49

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I also have this thing about Volkswagens and repairs...

In other words, my original assessment is still valid. :)

bob and john > Niquemarshall 01/13/2014 at 02:09

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if the car was well cared form why not.
but if it wasnt, and shit starts to hit the fan. mother of god are you in for some repairs (psst,m now is a good time to upgrade those turbos..)

Ggoodoien > Niquemarshall 06/21/2015 at 18:38

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The truth, coming from an owner, they arent the most reliable you do have to pull the engine for major jobs and the turbos arent the strongest thing in the world, having said that, they are strong running cars, fun to drive, easy to mod monsters of a car. No to mention that a ko4 s4 will do 0-60 in “holy shit was that actually a Ferrari?” i love the car.